Daniel,

Great to read your post on this topic.

I'm one of those people who think that TV dance shows are good for dance--even though I have not enjoyed a single one of these TV programs. I actually cannot stand them. I'm still hoping, probably against common sense, that Bravo's upcoming dance show will actually chart new territory. We will see.

I think it is excellent to see that dance is back in popular culture and imagination - on TV, commercials, viral videos, iPods. This is an important development that the concert dance community can take advantage of in order to reach out to and connect with larger audiences. I just don't think that we've seen too much of a cross-over yet from the concert dance community into the pop-culture dance world. We've seen, as you point out, dance going from pop-culture to the concert stage.

For me the question is how does the concert dance community leverage the Internet and other avenues to connect with these larger audiences that have now been exposed to dance through TV and the Internet? How do artists do this in a way that maintains the integrity of their work? And what type of involvement and participation, if any, would choreographers and dancers like to see from this larger audience?

Did you see them at Pillow though? I did and I blogged about it, but, you see, no one reads my blog because it's too much about concert dance, which no one cares about. I only get large numbers of readers when I blog about the TV shows. Why do I blog about concert dance? No frigging idea. I'm a masochist, clearly. Sorry for the piss mood, but it's kind of hard to start a writing career when no one reads you because your subject is so unpopular.

Regarding Rasta and his "boys" and "girls," I can only say that I truly TRULY hope these titles are meant to be ironic...

Actually the Bad Boys look pretty artsy to me. Yes, it's slightly gimmicky, but the short slices of their pieces shown on their demo reel look kind of interesting. A demo reel is meant as a marketing tool, so obviously it's going to be just a hook with little substance.

I don't think you've given a good reason as to why dance tv shows are bad for dance. The only thing you've revealed is that you seem jealous of dancers who pursue fame and popularity. Experimental dance is an orange to pop culture's apples. They have completely different objectives. Occasionally there are weird anomalies where experimental artists cross over into the pop world, but this is a rarity, not a rule. Nevertheless, experimental dancers have more chances at growing audiences if there is a strong presence of dance in pop culture. Martha Graham flowered during the golden age of hollywood movie musicals. I doubt she ever said that hollywood musicals helped her career, but the fact that anyone from the press took notice of her may have been because dance in the media was popular at that time.

Don't expect dance tv shows to revolutionize your life, but do notice if it revolutionizes others' lives. Case in point: I'm an experimental modern dancer and filmmaker, but I decided I wanted to be a dancer when I was six after watching Solid Gold! Did Solid Gold make me a shallow artist? No, but it was an entry way into an art form I may have never knew existed otherwise as kid growing up in rural northern Vermont.

couple of responses:

Anna, I think it is great that you were inspired by Solid Gold - so was I, along with Fame and Flash Dance and the whole range of popular dance at the time. I hope that it is happening all over these days with young people. My criticism was more focused on the reverse influence - tv dancing moving to the concert stage. I really don't think continuing to lower the bar on quality serves us as dancers. And, I don't mean to say that the "bad boys" or "pretty girls" may not be good dancers, or at least good technicians, but the overall product seems alot less that one would hope Rasta (especially) to strive for.

Tonya, I also really hope that "bad boys" and "pretty girls" are ironic, but I'm not very optimistic about that considering how much skin is shown on both websites (though, alot of dance is guilty of trying to use skin/sex to sell). Also, I do think there are people interested in dance writing - the Great Dance website gets over 20,000 unique visitors each month - that seems pretty impressive.

Anna,

It was Solid Gold for me too! Remember Darcel Wynne? What a goddess! Although, I have to admit Wayland Flowers and Madame still give me nightmares...

Hi Tom,
Yes, I remember all the dancers, by sight mostly, I forgot their names! I remember telling my mom I wanted to be a Solid Gold dancer, but then wondering if it meant you always had to wear high heels and string bikinis. I was so relieved to hear that it wasn't mandatory for all dance!

Daniel,
Sorry for being so harsh with my comments. I should never blog when I'm over-tired! But, I'm still not convinced by your argument that the Bad Boys are an example of how dance tv shows are dumbing down concert dance. I feel like groups like the Bad Boys are helping to balance out an over-serious academic side of concert dance that has been dominating the past ten years. Why can't concert dance also be entertaining, and market itself to attract a larger audience? Is it so bad for cute guys to flaunt their looks as dancers? From reading Tonya's review of them at the Pillow, I get the sense that they are defying stereotypes with their name, and saying "yes, we're ballet dancers, but we do other things too, and we're men." I think that is good for dance ultimately, to see men rocking out on stage and gaining fans. They are going to encourage other young men to dance and feel confident with themselves as movers.

To raise another argument, there is a gender power discrepancy in the dance world right now with a majority of dancers being women but a majority of choreographers and artistic directors in the biggest companies being men. This is a problem that needs to be confronted by the dance community. But it's a little off-topic from this post. If you could find fault with the Bad Boys and their Jacob's Pillow performance, perhaps it's that Jacob's Pillow tends to book to male-headed companies? I'm not sure about that, I haven't done the research to say... It makes sense that they would invite a company like the Bad Boys of Dance though, being that the Pillow was founded by Ted Shawn and his all-male dance company. The Pretty Girls of Dance is another matter. I'm all for girl power, but the name of this company implies stereotypes all the way... I don't think I can get down with that, unless they are actually super-butch and weight-lifters or something.

Anna,

I actually don't think we need to "defy" any stereotypes of male dancers, if anything we should be defying broader cultural stereotypes of men. Having "cute guys flaunt their looks" only reinforces notions of gender norms along the same lines as boy bands (not overly "manly", but still celebrating sexual power). I would think that most people who believe the stereotypes of male dancers are not going to have their minds changed by watching the "Bad Boys of Dance" - isn't one of the stereotypes of dancers in general as overly sexualized and promiscuous?

Also, I'm not sure I see your point of dance being overly-serious or academic - especially over the last 10 years. I think that Judson Church Theater artists were pretty serious and academic as was Merce and many others. I feel like alot of dance I see is not thoughtful enough and that is my concern with work that has this cookie-cutter feel. It is thrown together using established methodology and over-used symbolism. I just don't think it is enough and we should expect and ask for more from the artists that we celebrate.

And, at least from the website, it doesn't look like any of the "pretty girls" are butch...

People need their eggs cracked little by little, and reality shows can serve as a gentle introduction to more challenging work. If you take someone who's never seen experimental dance before, and plunk them down in the middle of a Merce Cunningham concert, they're going to sleep.

I'm serious. I've done the plunking, and I've seen the sleeping.

Most of America is not running with our jive.

While Rasta's choice might seem like the sellout option to some, these mainstreamed actions can serve as an entry point to the edge-grinding, genre-busting work we know and love.

People are much more savvy about other forms of television and can stomach much more sophisticated programming in terms of dramas, comedies, etc. The key will be to edge the general population over to expecting more compelling dance works on TV. And that will take time.

It's great to inspire new dance artists with these shows. The next step is to use these shows to create loyal audiences for innovative dance, as well. The real questions is, "How can we use the popularity of dance shows to coax people out of the mainstream and into the future of dance?"

And yeah, it was Darcell for me too...

While I'm not a fan of the recent dance shows - I've only watched one full episode of SYTYCD, I have seen how they bring new audiences to dance. How we shape the audiences' perception of dance is our business. I applaud your calls for sophistication from within the creative community itself - we do need to demand our best from each other and, most importantly, ourselves.

I am finding that my definition of my best shifts with my life experiences, creative impulses, curiosities, and even mood. Nothing about the craft or my personal progress is linear; therefore, my definitions of "great" product from a choreographer or a company or myself shifts, changes, shrinks, and expands. This, for me, is as it should be. And, I need the room for that growth.

I hope that one day I reach a large enough audience, on a consistent basis, to make my income making dances. My personal caveat to that is that I have to believe in the dances I make. It would be easy to make my living making dances now, if I wanted to make only pageantry style & commercial style work. I do enjoy making some pieces that are primarily for entertainment, but often I do want more from the content & the experience of creation itself. I think great art is also captivating. Why not reach the masses with a masterpiece? I don't know if I'll achieve that, but I'm certainly going to try.

Regardless, success is an individual definition. I do not believe that the general population are mindless sheep eating what they are fed. There is a solid reason for the popularity of those shows... they see beautiful physical creatures doing things with their bodies that most people can't imagine doing themselves - in a very public way. AND they are competing. Concert dance is not a sport - we do not have a winner and a loser at the end of the night. Audiences coming from the t.v. show experience to a dance concert don't expect that, but they do expect virtuosity. Is it our responsibility to deliver? We all have to answer that question for ourselves. Our individual product demonstrates our answer...

I realize I went off on a tangent here :)

The teacher in me just asked another question... Do audiences picture themselves in these celebrity dance roles? YES! They do! I ask every new student if they dance boldly with wild abandon in their living room when no one is watching. They all respond with an enthusiastic, "YES!" The trick is learning to do so while people are watching... If we're not performing work that makes people want to move too, we will not cultivate much of an audience - period.

Kelly,

You state that the people who watch these shows "see beautiful physical creatures doing things with their bodies that most people can't imagine doing themselves". That could be said about gymnastics, professional basketball or action movies. This idea of "beautiful physical creatures" is just supporting the dominant image of beauty - tight asses and rippling abs. I think this just continues the stereotype of dancers as having to be slim, hot and buff, which I find to get in the way of actually seeing and making art.

And, if anyone can convince me that John Tesh was good for classic music I'll buy that TV dance is good for concert dance...

LOL... While I will not even try to convince you, or anyone else on the excellence of John Tesh for classical music, I will say that John Tesh may have been the gateway for some new hard-core classic fans.

It's about a gateway. More people are taking dance classes than before SYTYCD - and the more people participate - in any way, small or large - the more the dance audience grows, including yours.

It is up to us crazy concert dance makers to create depth to the perception.

And, I do think tight asses and rippling abs are YUMMY! I see the beauty in many types of dancing bodies - as my work reflects - but again, I don't expect mainstream t.v. to demonstrate that... it's not their job - it's ours. :)

Thanks for putting the topic out there!

Kelly, a couple quick thoughts. 1. I'm not sure I agree about t.v. and beautiful bodies - was it t.v.'s "job" to support or challenge racism or sexism? Or was it ok so support these points of view since they were "mainstream" beliefs? And, of course, the reason you (and, I must admit, I) think tight asses and rippling abs are "yummy" is because of being saturated with these images throughout our life time. 2. I think it is great if more people are taking dance classes because of these shows, I don't think it will have a big impact on developing audiences - most people I know who take dance classes don't go to shows (this includes "professional dancers"), or only shows that they know someone in. 3. And lastly, my original post was not about how these shows inspire others to take class or go to dance concerts, but my perception that these shows are influencing what we, as artist, put on stage - and that can be nothing but bad.

Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree. I'm a long time jazz musician (over 30 years) and a relatively new dancer (~5 years).

Musicians have argued this exact topic for years... does John Tesh or Kenny G help or hurt the serious artists out there pushing the envelope.

Those TV shows get more people interested in dance and the gateway effect is real. You need audiences if you are going to make enough money to sustain your art. (Unless you are already wealthy, which only applies to a few.)

I could provide some of the parallels with the music world, but you always need gateway or bridge artists that bring new people into the fold.

Those TV shows introduce millions of new people to dance, and people start exploring the art. A few will cross over. If Solid Gold moved some of the people here into serious dance, than today's TV shows will have a similar effect.

I started with Grover Washington Jr. and other cross-over jazz artists when I was a teenager and ended up a serious musician because of them. Before that I listened to Deep Purple and "Smoke on the Water".

In LA the studios have more dance students than ever before, and over time that can only help the dance community, across a broad spectrum.

Millions are not going to start with some of the progressive dance troupes out there; it's simply not accessible or entertaining enough for people without a little background.

Without growing audiences most arts die over time. The TV shows have a net positive effect, even if you believe they water down some aspects.

In the long run, they give more dancers a chance to build a following and pursue their dreams of excellence, even if the shows focuses on the sexier aspects of dance.

Don,

thanks for your thoughts - though I too much respectfully disagree. I am sure we can all point to examples (including ourselves) of people who were inspired by t.v. dance or accessible music that then became serious, experimental artists. I know that of all the people I danced with growing up (I started when I was 9) I am the only one that has gone this route. A couple of others tried to make it on Broadway or in L.A., a couple did shows on cruise ships, but most just stopped dancing without ever even trying modern or anything outside the norm. And, I would bet, that almost none of them have gone to a professional dance concert in years. Now, I do think it is great that more people are taking dance class, any dance class because I do believe that the more people that dance the better. But, again, I go back to my original concern that these shows influence not just the general public, but the artists themselves. it will be interesting to see if this concern comes to fruition, or if I'm just too cynical...

Daniel,

I respect your opinion, and we have similar paths although mine is music. I started music at age 14, moved to LA and studied with some of the world's best studio musicians in my early 20s, played professionally until my late 20's, but never made enough money to sustain a large family.

I love jazz music and we've had this same discussion for years in the music world. Few people appreciate great jazz music, just like few people appreciate and support experimental dance.

Few people actually sit and listen to music these days, just like few go to or try modern dance. Without gateway artists, I never would have crossed over into serious music.

If they have something to get them started (playing an instrument by taking some lessons) they are more likely to enjoy more experimental/modern music. Without some education, few appreciate the high end arts, because it's not accessable for most.

The TV shows will influence a set of artists, and the more people who get some dance/music background/education the better from my point of view.

Then again, I'm not trying to make a living as an experimental artist, so my opinion may not apply.

And FWIW - I did recently go to a modern ballet concert, and took my family and mother-in-law. (Seven of us total).

I never would have even considered it but I have done enough social dancing and basic jazz classes to appreciate the artists. If I hadn't gotten involved with social dancing, I would have never considered this concert. Because I had a gateway, I invested a couple hundred on tickets and influenced others to go. I wanted my kids exposed to it, and I wanted to see it myself. (I had a great time!)

I'll go to their next event too...

I'm sure I'm just one, and my experience may not apply to others, but those artists would have never been on my radar screen without my gateway into dancing via a social dance, the type you see on the shows today.

You may be right, but many musicians earn money via the cross-over, light-weight events, (recording for TV shows, movies) then pursue their passion because they have enough to pay rent next month.

Your results may vary and one path is never right for everybody.

Best to you!

Daniel,

From their website:
"BAD BOYS OF DANCE is a stunning cast of male dancers who
combineBallet, Broadway, Ballroom, Hip hop, Gymnastics,
Martial Arts and more to deliver a highly imaginative and entertaining show...this talented and
versatile group brings quality dancing to the
masses through physical prowess, raw masculinity and technical
perfection. "

It seems like they are pretty honest about what they are about. Have you ever heard the phrase "everything is everything"? Well, it's a true. It's also true that maintsream tv an radio appeal to the cheesier side of taste. it might not even be chessy, just the dominant norm. As I'm sure you're aware of, there is a huge money making machine out there that wants to keep making money so they appeal to the dominant norm. As far as I can tell, thats the way people are. They don't think or care about stuff that doesn't directly concern them. Thats where art comes in. Entertainment entertains. Art speaks. And yes, artists are influenced by the world around them. Thats their specialty. Being sensitive to the world around them.

Yes, it's too bad that your work, which is probably much more thoughtful and soulful than the work on SO You Think You Can Dance (awesome show, btw), doesn't have as much exposure as Mia Michaels'but here's the thing. If you just dismiss other people's tastes as inferior, of course they're not gonna care about you or your work. If you care about growing your audience, i suggest listening to them. If you don't, don't worry there's room for that. Just recognize that choice and don't complain about the results.

Best,
Adrian

2 things:

1. Adrian, you're totally right that they appear to upfront about what they are presenting. And, honestly, I hope they completely deliver and bring dance to many, many people. Also, I hope So You Think You Can Dance inspires tons of people to take dance classes, see dance concerts and support dance. I, personally, don't think in the long run the show will make much difference - but, I do hope I've very wrong about this.

2. I am finding it so interesting that a blog entry about a TV show has generated more responses than any other entry I've posted. It is a TV show and people seem to want to defend it and seem upset (not all, but many) that I would criticize it (which I've only barely done). And while I've enjoyed the back and forth, I'm not sure how I feel about this reaction...

To Anna Brady Nuse, Tonya, Adrian and others who have backed the Bad Boys of Dance Company:

Thank you for your support. And I completely agree with all what you said. I think this guy is really jealous. I mean he hasn't even seen the BBD shows and he is spreading ill experienced comments by dismissing the validity of what our company does.

By the way, I'm one of the dancers.

People came up to me during the performances at Jacob's Pillow expressing their gratitude for entertaining and inspiring them during a night when they could have just watched TV or went to see a movie... or worst did nothing. But instead, they came to see us perform... a live dance performance featuring versatile male dancers that come from all corners of the dance spectrum. Rasta Thomas' Bad Boys of Dance was well received by the Jacob's Pillow community and its supporters and is moving on to do bigger and better things.

And YES!... as Adrian suggest, we are honest people. What is on the website is only an understatement of how much content, meaning, honesty, and hard work we put in our shows. Always more, no less.